9-11 archive: September 2001
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9-11 archive: September 2001
A moment for all those people who were killed and injured in the attacks this morning, as well as their families. An unthinkable event has occurred, and I hope the USA mobilizes and bombs a bunch of small countries into oblivion. I know that's not the point, but whoever did this deserves to DIE. A moment of silence...
I'm still in shock. How could anyone even think of doing something like this?
It all comes down to jealousy. Most Americans live comfortably and in relative harmony. Apparently there are some sick cowards who have a problem with that- I blame jealousy. And I still want war.
My mom called me at 10am and told me the news and that the south tower had fallen. I told her that I couldn't believe it and that I was leaving the house to see it with my own eyes. As I walked down 14th and 3rd ave. I saw nothing but smoke billowing in the distance. I wanted a better view so I decided to walk down 6th ave. (Avenue of the Americas). The North tower was on fire but it was still intact. People were walking on the streets, many openly crying (myself included). Some meandered like they were lost.
Deciding I wanted a better look (I still couldn't believe it) I walked further down the street. My view was partially blocked by a tree top, and that was when I heard a roar of horror from the crowds as they stared up at the only remaining tower. I quickly moved to clear my view of the tree. That was when I saw the second tower crumble. After that nothing was visible, all of lower Manhattan was encapsulated in a cloud of smoke- almost like the souls of the dead shrouding the ruins.
Remember that we here in America are considered the great white devil to alot of the more reactionary middle-eastern trrorist beliefs. They fight with 'Allah on their side' and don't care whether they live or die, as long as they destroy "the great corrupter" with them. I say, give them what they want. Kill em all.
Kill em all.
Kill em all.
Gimme a gun, I'll do it myself.
It's almost enough to make me want to enlist. And I don't think Allah would approve of killing thousands of innocents- many of them Islamic as well. If destroying all Americans is their goal, who the f#%k are they trying to kid? We're too numerous, too rich, too influential and too well armed.
Nat, latest word is that Manhatten is being totally evacuated. If you feel the need to get out, my place is open. And it's got a good view.
No, just lower Manhattan. I'm aright, don't worry about me. If there is another terrorist attack where I kick the bucket, just wannna let you guys know I love y'all. But I'm sure I'll be fine. I'm just glad I don't live in Battery Park =)
Besides, all the tunnels, bridges and trains are cut off from Manhattan right now, so there's no way I can leave even if I wanted to =) So Manhattan is now TRULY and island =) And it's all MINE now... Woo hoo!
yeah I agree... We should go to war..... We should show those who decided to make that fatally and deadly move what we are capable of!!!!
Buffy
Mmmm, the problem with war is that it is clearly determined and demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that a war would be fought on American soil as surely as overseas. This is not a fly-over-the-ocean and bomb-somebody-else's-country war, it is personal and it is at home.
I agree that the action is terrible, and that something needs to be done, but in a world where you can fly to Japan in 15 minutes, violence of any kind will only grow and grow, swallowing both agressor and retaliator alike.
Anyone ever hear of the Rule of 3? This is it, in action, and as Americans begin to demand retribution, we are in real danger of escalating this into a full-blown bloody war for both sides in which not only soldiers, but civilians are harmed. To retaliate by blowing the heck out of Palestine or another mid-east country will do more damage to us.
I'll give you something to think about - for years and years and years, the US has been trying to get the Palestinians and Israelis to lay down their guns and have peace. It has been VERY HARD, but one thing the US says is "I know you're under attack from terrorists EVERY DAY, but you have to turn the other cheek and suck it up - you have to do ANYTHING you can to stay at the negotiation table, for that is the ONLY hope for lasting peace."
If we ask this of them, then we fly off the handle after a ONE day (all due respect intended to all our loved ones) it basically undermines everything we've been saying all these years, it makes all our attempts to encourage peace in the mideast seem like total BS. In other words, do as the US says, not as he does.
This is very serious. An attempt is being made to drag us into a war that has been going on for thousands of years, and the way we present ourselves in the face of this disaster will reveal, without a doubt, the TRUE face of the United States to all the nations of the world. Will this reaction be tempered by fury and hatred, or by wisdom?
We are at the verge of setting off a chain reaction that once ignited, may be impossible to stop. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a military solution will be executed, and in response, more terrorist attacks on US soil will be provoked.
When an entire country is trained to die in order to accomplish their objectives, you cannot frighten or dissuade them with threats of death.
Bless us all,
Sol
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper (quite a while ago), is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy
were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to
the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on
the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened
by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on
the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You
talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You
talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about
scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for
everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from
ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced
to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb
their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I
hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
Wear it proudly!!
Sol,
With all due respect to your infallible logic, i have to point out that as far as the Middle East is concerned we ARE already in it, we have been in it. We are there for oil. This is one of the main reasons we fought to push Hussein out of Kuwait.
Going off the handle and attacking another sovereign nation is most likely NOT what our leaders will do. But if we do NOTHING, the result will be these people will believe they can use terrorism to stop us. The goal of terrorism is to scare people into either acting irrationally or to run away in TERROR. If you do not react the assumption from the terrorist is : "I WON."
What we need to do is exactly what we did when Mcvay (sp) bombed Olklahoma City,
1) Find those who did it
2) Bring them to justice.
This is what we will do. The people who did this are guilty of crimes against humanity. They must be found and punished or they will do it again. I'm not just saying this because they hit NYC. I've said it before.
Maybe now, our leaders will take up the burden of being the world's policeman. Heak, we're already expected to in other cases.
Where can I catch a plane to Japan and get there in 15 minutes? 
Personally, I do not think it was the Palestinians. I think those that were celebrating, were just happy to see us get hurt (which is WRONG). I'm not saying that I KNOW it wasn't them, but I doubt they would have had the power to do it, or if they had they'd have done it directly to Israel.
And with all due respects to the Palestinians, they were there before we gave the land to the Zionists to form Israel. They had lived there for centuries. We had no business doing that.
I certainly hope, as do most Americans (i believe), that it does not come to a real conflict, but if it does........
Darren
I agree that something must be done. I'm not even very sure what. Bringing 1 man to justice is one thing, and I'm all for that. Is it even that guy (what's his name?) or is it something we are not yet aware of?
Good news - I hear that Israel has sent us aid in the form of rescue teams and supplies. This is nice to hear, and as far as I know is the only time in recent history that another country has pitched in to help US out.
This whole scenario literally makes me sick. Violence is not necessary, and it always makes me angry when it happens anyway - it doesn't have to be like that.
Sol
OK, you asked for news, here it is, fresh from the AP newswire (yes, now we can all say "THANK YOU FRED" ) OK, recent developments:
FBI investigation has led to the apprehension and questioning of men suspected to be involved with the unfortunate events of yesterday's tragedy, they were located in Boston, Rhode Island, and Miami Florida.
Each of the 4 jet planes were taken by between 3-6 men each, who were trained as pilots right here, in the USA.
The 4th plane which was crashed outside Pittsburgh was assumed to be targetting the White and/or Air Force One. Speculation is that the passengers and surviving crew discovered the horror of what they were being hijacked for, and retook the craft, at least partiall, forcing it to crash in an unpopulated area. (my personal opinion is that these people, if this is true, are heroes of the highest order).
The United Nations has pledged unanimously to aid the UNited States in whatever effort they deem necessary to make an example of whomever did this, as well as bring them to justice.
NATO has also agreed to similar terms, lending military, financial, and emergency management support in this, our darkest hour.
George W. Bush has requested a 'blank check' from congress to fund whatever actions may be necessary in the coming months/whatever. Congress denied this, but said they would give the pres whatever he needed to spend, as long as he itemized it first.
Congress has declared today a national day of mourning and recovery. 15 members of the European League (whatever it's called) have also declared today a day of mourning. The world stands with us, looking to us for leadership in this event.
Congress is officially debating on whether or not to make a formal declaration of war.
These are the facts as they stand right now. I have had a day to think about what happened, and I have seen the videos and heard the reports. I think the government is doing what it needs to do right now. I also believe that whatever course of action we take, we must be cautious. People are flying off the handle, accusing Bin-Laden, who may not even be involved here. The investigation is ongoing, and nobody should jump to conclusions as it stands right now. The flight recorders are still missing. Circumstantial evidence has been rounded up by authorities, including the NSA, that strongly HINTS at the involvement of people in Bin-Laden's ORGANIZATION. The missile strikes in Afghanistan were part of their own internal civil strife. The world is definately a different place for me than it was yesterday. I do not condone a retaliatory strike that would kill innocents as well as appropriate targets...
Sol, I understand your beliefs, and in a way I can see where you are coming from. I agree that violence begets violence, and America must tread carefully here if we are to maintain a 'global peace' while still exacting justice. Many of these terrorists only believe in 'an eye for an eye' mentality, but we, as Americans, do not. If you want an example of violence begetting violence, look no further than yesterday. Remember this: They hit US first. We are already seen as the "Great White Satan" to many of these people. Saddam Hussein wrote in an Iraqi newspaper that "Those in america reaped what they deserved for their crimes against humanity. Let it be an example to all other tyrranical leaders who would dare attempt corrupt us" I am paraphrasing, but it was very similar. I am not condoning prejudice here, because the basis for the religion of Islam is that of pacifism. Those terrorists who would have us think they are doing the work of Allah are really only living out a perversion of a peaceful religion to further their own ends.
We must be careful, for if we strike militarily against a target, we cannot and MUST NOT do it alone. It would solidify the perception of us being this great war-mongering bully that executes 'crimes against humanity' in the eyes of the Arab countries. If we hit Bin-Laden and take him out, as well as his organisation, we risk turning him into a martyr and a saint. They already consider him a hero over there. This whole situation is beyond imagination. How any terrorist organisation or group of people could EVER consider us as perpetrating crimes against humanity is totally beyond me. You need only look at the Gulf War. We went out of our way, and in many cases even endangered our OWN TROOPS in order to prevent, as much as possible, the loss of civilian lives. Now these bastards cowardly attack NON-MILITARY targets, killing tens of thousands of INNOCENT CIVILIANS without warning, and they have the AUDACITY to tell us about our 'CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY'? When cast in this light, Sol, you can see how people can be very very angry and want to exact revenge here, right?
And as you said, Sol, if we do go to war, there is a real possibility that it will have battles fought here, on our soil, not overseas. I understand this. I accept this. And if it comes to pass, so be it. I will even re-enlist if that happens. This is how strongly I feel about this. I have never seen America as unified as it is now, with one resolve. THe nations of the world are behind us. The people of our great nation are behind us. Even people like Yassir Arafat and Fidel Castro have sent their condolences and offered assistance in finding and bringing to justice the perpetrators of this heinous crime of hatred.
We are ready. Whatever happens, we are ready. God help those who attacked us. Thank you. Good Night.
(moment of silence)
Afterthought:
The mid-east countries we are speaking of here actually do not have the means to execute a concentrated military engagement on American soil. Which is WHY they turn to terrorism. And this, the largest terrorist attack on american soil in known history, must not go unchecked, unpunished. I do not know what this action did to further the goals of whatever organisation did it, for that organisation undoubtedly realizes that once found out, that organization will be no more. Perhaps they wanted to meet Allah quicker? And as far as what the US does to 'retaliate' to this attack upon humanity itself, whether we will be wise and peaceful, or full of rage and fury, I say the best course of action is a wise, tempered fury, for even the wisest men know when it is time to strike.
Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001
Miami Herald
Leonard Pitts, Jr
We'll go forward from this moment
It's my job to have something to say. They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
IN PAIN
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
THE STEEL IN US
You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.
But you're about to learn.
We can still hear sirens outside our windows in New York.
We can still smell that horrible stench that won't go away.
We can still feel the effects of Tuesday's attacks.
But despite it all, we are still proud to be Americans!
If you're proud:
http://mailbits.com/goto/pride
Eric and I once had a discusion in which we both agreed that WW2 was the last time America as a whole stood together as one galvanized unit. It took a sneak attack that destroyed american property and killed American citizens to do so.
We again as a people stand united under the symbol of this country, the very flag waving above my words now.
You all talk about going to war and killing those responsible but it will do no good. The President and Congress debate on whether or not to go to war but it will do no good. cut off the head of a hydra and another will take its place. So it is with these animals that attack our freedom.
What we have to do is find them, take them and humiliate them and their kind for what hey have done to us. I watched video from palistine that showed people celebrateing what had happened, but nothing hurt me more than to see a child dancing and raise his hand with his fingures in the shape of a V, OUR peace gesture, OURS. They attack us and dare use our own icons against us, yes I'm angry but killing them only makes them martyrs to their causes.
I am and have never been more proud to be an American. American born, American bred, I am a son of liberty.
I just looked at my monocer that started as a joke but now seems to fit. Funny how we can look at things differently when the world comes crashing down around us.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words...
Hey everybody,
I've been donating my $$$ to the Redcross at Wegmans every time I go, it is for a good cause. If my blood was fully human, I'd be donating it as well. The real heros are the ones digging through tons of rubble. Good luck, brothers.
War is officially declared. I can certainly see how many want revenge. Of course, there could never be a better reason. I walked around for three days feeling like I was punched right in the gut.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about this issue, it really makes you consider what you believe in. Esp good ol' Sol, vegetarian and total pacifist for 10 years. Not very popular.
It makes me think about the fall of Tibet. You know the story. Invasion with no resistance. Thousands choosing to die rather than fight. WHY?
The Tibetans believe that life is sacred. I mean REALLY believe it. Even the enemy has children. The enemy is human. And they would not destroy a life to preserve a life. Even if it was an enemy.
"It is impossible to reason with Terrorists." True. But who made the label? I can label anyone I want a terrorist. If I do so, I dehumanize him. I make it so that no one will even consider his viewpoint. TERRORIST. What if I called him something else? Like "soldier" or "undercover agent" or "hero" or "martyr"? It is all in the words we use. The revolutionists who fought and won our freedom in 1776 were probably called terrorists by the Brittish... indeed, we used similar hit-and-run tactics, guerilla warfare as it were. It is the recourse of the weak.
Somebody told me that we bomb the Middle East every day, and have ever since the no-fly-zone. Is it true? I don't know, but I could believe it. Supposedly this kind of stuff is on Canadian radio, not American radio.
Another thing that bothers me - a terrorist act is usually some bozo with a bomb strapped to him that walks into a club or a subway and blows up - an unthoughtful act, rash, instant. But this was obviously planned for years and years. And WHY? I am sure there is a reason. Why it has not been revealed to the American People makes NO SENSE to me. Why go to all that trouble, all that expense for NO REASON, for a SENSELESS ACT? There's more, much more. I don't know what it is, but I am sure of it.
The declaration of War was a political move by Bush. I don't know how any kind of military strike could possibly succeed. Not without bombing innocents. Sure, they all dance and cheer at our sadness, but we can't kill them for words.
Sadam Heussein made a statement that "maybe now America might take this opportunity, through pain, to bond with her Iraqi neighbors - at last now we know how they feel" or some such. I laughed and turned off the radio.
And right after that, I stopped and thought. If Saddam Heussein could say something like that and STILL be ignored by me, then what the hell kind of chance for peace could we ever have? He is cast and recast as the devil to the point where a light blinks in my head (evil, evil, evil) whenever I hear his name.
I am brainwashed.
Now put the shoe on the other foot and you might be able to imagine how we are thought of in the Middle East - if you even can. It is very hard.
I still don't know what I think. But I am determined to see clearly. What's most important? What's the most important thing in the world? Safety, or love? And if you think love, then love for who? Some, or all? And if you think neither love nor safety, then what?
My friend Aimie did a healing energy circle for BOTH sides of the conflict. She called the radio station to tell about it and they pretty much hung up on her.
But I respect that.
Every creature has a right to defend itself, I do not disagree, but even if it is warranted, is it best? Or are we doomed to perpetuate a circle which was started long before we were even conceived? Samsara, the circle of suffering.
Love,
Sol
Pretty simple really, just take the emotion out of your line of tought. That's what makes things confusing. War, differences, and hatred have nothing to do with humanity, just motives.
We support Israel- If it weren't for the weapons we give them, the influence on political sanctions, etc. The Muslums could kick the Jews out of Israel, which is really what they want when you come down to it. Many Arab nations are soo poor and war-battered that they have nothing left to lose. It's easy to resent a nation like America when you see your own people suffering (regardless of the cause).
What makes this even worse is that it's also a religious conflict. If you read some of the interviews with Osama Bin Laden you'll notice he uses religion to fuel the debate, rationalize his actions and recruit soldiers to his side. He would rather see his people suffer with an American invasion than give himself up and come out of hiding... Why? Because he doesn't care about humanity. And if we're willing to march in there- slaughtering Taliman soldiers along the way- we don't either. So obviously compassion for our fellow man has no sway in this.
The more educated the masses, the less tempted they are by religious extremes- assuming they have religious freedom as well. I think that's part of why third world countries are a hot bed for budding terrorist groups.
Of course I could be wrong, this is just what's come to mind.
All things being equal I think it makes little difference whether a creature defends itself or not. Survival issues are indifferent to right and wrong.
oops. That's Taliban, not Taliman. I can't spell to save my life.
here's a little something I ran across today...
I saw a news photo today that had a bunch of angry-looking arabs standing in front of a banner that read "AMERICA! Think! Why it is you are hated throughout the world." The teachings of Islam are not warlike, nor are the teachings of Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism... None of the religions preach hatred. But they can be, and have been, twisted for personal--very human--reasons throughout history. So I suppose it comes as no small consolation the facts I lay down for all to see right now:
During the Clinton administration, numerous bombings were made across Afghanistan and other middle-eastern countries, labelled as a "decisive, pre-emptive strike against terrorism" It was during the height of the Monica Lewinsky incident. Bill Clinton had been making security and military cutbacks for years, claiming the world was a happy peaceful place. When civil strife sprang up in Kosovo, he sent in troops to do "police work." Also, several other actions, where we, as america, did not need to stick our noses in. Osama Bin-Laden has been quoted as saying that America has impeded the holy Jihad for too long in too many places. There were 2 summits held in the arab countries in february and april of 2000, where it was made abundantly clear that all the small factions of terrorists--ALL of them--were uniting in a common goal: Destroy America. We have become the recipients of a Jihad.
Osama Bin Laden stated that america "murdered innocent people" when we bombed his guerrilla camps in Afghanistan. 2 turned out to be Aspirin factories or some such crap. Poor intelligence? perhaps. Bin Laden said that "2 innocent children were killed in the bombings". It has always been an american policy to only target military objectives. Osama Bin Laden was a leader of the Mujahaddin in Afghanistan--you know, the rebel element opposing Russian occupation?--and his direct superior visited the USA several times, vying for more funding of the beleaguered movement. We gave them money. He even said "When we are finished destroying Russia, we will destroy you next." We trained their operatives on how to conduct terrorist attacks on the enemy, which at the time was still Russia.
We trained and funded Osama Bin Laden.
and so, in the end, the circle comes right back around. I am not trying to dehumanize people here, or brainwash anybody. My common, human decency tells me it is just WRONG to kill 20,000 innocent people just because I don't like what they believe in or what a few in their government have perpetrated. To blanket an entire people by the actions of so few is a mistake. Bin Laden, on several occasions, has made it abundantly clear that America is the great satan, which according to his belief, satan is "that evil force which controls the world". he has declared Jihads across the globe and America has been butting in to prevent them. He finds that annoying, and he wants to stop us from doing that.
He wants to create enough civil strife and disorder and chaos here on our own soil that we crumble inward upon ourselves, succumb to infighting, and splinter our diversified people enough so he may carry on his "holy wars" in other parts of the world. I ask you, how can ANY war be Holy? How can what happened last tuesday be construed as "God's Will" by anyone? I can see Sol's point, and yes, there is another perspective to everything. I have tried to see their perspective, and I can almost, ALMOST sympathize with what they believe.
But then they did THIS.
And I thought to myself, "How can any person do such a thing?"
War has been declared, yes. America is not facing this alone. The nations of the world stand with us, even amidst threats by the Taliban itself that "any country who aids America may be attacked next." we cannot let this go unanswered. We cannot, in good conscience, allow this crime against humanity itself go unpunished.
I tend to think of the attacks as America's wake-up call. we never thought terrorism could strike us here, it was always something that happened "over there". I cried for the people who died in the tragic attack, and I resolve myself for the upcoming tasks. America is ready for this, and America is justified in this. If we are officially at war, so be it. They brought it upon themselves.
my .02 cents:
Lincoln once said "a house divided aganst itself can not stand".
America doesn't need another Vietnam.
We should support the war effort and our troops, not protest it. This is a time for America to stand together in one voice and say:
We will not go gentle into that good night. We will NOT go down without a fight.
I love our country. I love our world, too. We are all part of 1 family, and I hate it when we fight. I know we can overcome the we-vs-them, this is our power as thinking rational beings, but it saddens me that it seems it will not be today.
I am proud that George W. has not acted in any rash way, and this is very good. Hopefully the clerics of Afghanistan will vote to turn over those responsible - that they have even entertained the idea gives hope to me.
Good luck all, and may we be preserved.
The Taliban *might* turn over Osama to a neutral country, I heard that they were going to impose a few condions to that, though. Like having the Taliba recognized as the official government of Afghanistan.
We're trying to get the other arab countries to declare Bin Laden and his followers "Traitors to Islam". Bin Laden wants this to become USA-vs-Islam, so we are trying to diffuse this by saying Bin Laden-vs-World. Swift thinkin, huh?
Whaddya think, everyone? Do you think Osama will be turned over (at all)? I say there's a chance, but I guess 30%. This is SO serious that there is no doubt much concern about what will happen if he is NOT turned over.
Ideas?
Sol
As I understand it, it would be highly unusual if they DID turn him over - it just isn't done. But these are extraordinary circumstances.
Sol
Me 'n' Fred had a pretty deep talk last night. Fred, you certainly know your stuff about US history and military operations, etc.
Sol
I doubt they'll turn Osama over, if they do there will be some heavy trade-offs.
As for Osama being a traitor to Islam, you guys might want to read this BBC article. It talks about how Bin Laden treats the Afghans who aren't in his Taliban clique.
I have no idea why Israel was dragged into this, our support of them is barely noticeable in the scheme of complex hatreds borne us by the zealots resonsible for murdering such dangerous Americans as a TV producer, a movie star's widow, three 11 year olds on a trip, half a dozen children all under the age of five, flight attendents, a few dozens young parents, and that's only a tiny sample of the victims from the airliners, without even touching on the thousands of dangerous accountants, reading room employees, insurance agents and retailers who died in the towers, or the hundreds of clerks, and secretaries who died in the Pentagon.
We are hated because we are Americans. That is the sole motive. We do not (and cannot) think as they do and are therefore evil in their estimation. The Koran teaches them to be tolerant of the followers of the other prophets (ie Jews and Christians), but they seem to conveniently forget that bit. The Taliban is largely comprised of illiterate clerics who know the Koran only by rote. Nat is right, most of it goes back to jealosy, throw in ignorance, bitterness,and megolomania, and you have the people who orchestrated this murderous attack.
And just FYI, the formation of Israel as a Jewish state was not done by us, tho' we voted for it. It was, along with the state of Jordan created by the UN after the British Empire vacated the mandate on the area. The Jewish settlers were almost immediately attacked by their Islamic neighbors who advised the local Muslim population to step aside while the 'drove the Jews into the sea'. When against the odds the brand new Israelis won their war for independance in 1948, they were less than thrilled with the idea of hostiles trying to return to Israel, but Jordan and the others wouldn't take the new refugees they created either - hence the beginning of the so called Palestinian problem.
Many tribes have long lived in the region Smokeduster, some of them were Jewish tribes and always have been. It has long been a religious center for Jew, Christian, and Muslim. Many of the most holy sites for all three are located on that little dusty strip of land.
Just as an aside, I'd also like to point out hat during the Gulf War, our troops went out of thier way often putting themselves in danger to avoid civilian targets, and to engage only combatants. As Gen Schwartzkopf said, thats what makes us better than the SOBs who attacked us.
Ok, I'm done.
Jews in the middle east may go back as far as the ottoman empire - hostages of war, if I recall rightly? I am afraid my information in this regard is very sketchy.
Sol
Try Roman empire Sol. It was their temple of Soloman that the Romans destroyed to quell the Jewish revolts of what was then called Judea, a province of the Roman empire. And the Jews also make up quite a cast of characters in the Old Testement, a lot of which is very pre Roman and takes place on the aforementioned strip of dusty land. The semitic peoples - including Jews - have held those lands for over 5000 years.
So I read history.
For a more in depth study of the history and culture of Isreal:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/timeline.html
Here is a copy of a letter someone sent me (mailing list). It is quite a nice POV and I think I should share it with you all.
*****
Dear Friends,
Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage," and he asked, "What else can we do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about these issues especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's been going on over there. So I want to share a few thoughts with anyone who will listen.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I fervently wish to see those monsters punished.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who captured Afghanistan in 1997 and have been holding the country in bondage ever since. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a master plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love for someone to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. I guarantee it.
Some say, if that's the case, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban themselves? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately two million men killed during the war with the Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these women for being women and have buried some of their opponents alive in mass graves. The soil of Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all the farms have been destroyed . The Afghan people have tried to overthrow the Taliban. They haven't been able to.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble with that scheme is, it's already been done. The Soviets took care of it . Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only land in the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.(They have already, I hear.) Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time
So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. I think that when people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" many of them are thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. They are thinking about overcoming moral qualms about killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die not kill that's actually on the table. Americans will die in a land war to get Bin Laden. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. To get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. The invasion approach is a flirtation with global war between Islam and the West.
And that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants and why he did this thing. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. AT the moment, of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are Muslims and there are Muslim countries, but no such political entity as Islam.
Bin Laden believes that if he can get a war started, he can constitute this entity and he'd be running it. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong about winning, in the end the west would probably overcome--whatever that would mean in such a war; but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden yes, but anyone else?
I don't have a solution. But I do believe that suffering and poverty are the soil in which terrorism grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us into creating more such soil, so they and their kind can flourish. We can't let him do that. That's my humble opinion.
Tamim Ansary
Which is exactly why the Navy Seals and other Special Operations Units specializing in anti-terrorism were created. You can call them assassin squads if you want, because that's what they would be used as in this situation. This is a very good opinion piece, and I agree that this is exactly what Bin Laden wants. But if we can see this, our military and government tacticians also see it, I would hope. There are solutions being drawn up to diffuse the "Islam-vs.-America" scenario mentioned above.
Here's a revolutionary idea: we should do what we have always done with the world. Fly in AID to the poor and wretched of Afghanistan and the other middle-east countries. Send in Special Forces guys to train the peasants how to fight the Taliban themselves. Would that be risking the replacement of one terrorist regime with another? dunno. Get the common folks on our side, not with an "invasion force" but with a "liberation force". Promise aid and reconstruction once the Taliban 'regime' is ousted. Oh, and ummm, Pakistan has already agreed to allowing it's airspace AND grounds to be used as a staging area, if it comes down to it.
And if a newspaper editor from Seattle of Afghan descent has this intelligence on the state of the country, then I am certain our military has the same, if not MORE detailed intelligence, and will use it accordingly to the best advantage of all people involved. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Byebye.
I don't know about you guys, but the more I learn about the Taliban the more disgusted I get.
A overview of the Taliban.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/taliban_intro.html
Transcript of President Bush's adress to both houses of congress and the nation.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_Bush_transcript010920.html
ABC NEWS article on pro-peace rallys at US colleges and universities seeking for a non violent solution to bring these people to justice.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_peacegroups_010920.html
My .02 cents.
No offense to the pacifism folks. I I just don't agree with them in this instance.
The relatvists tell us that all people are basically good and that no evil really exists only
a difference of perspective.
What a load of manure! The people who designed
and executed this attack on our soil were and still are EVIL.
We need to eliminate that evil at all costs.
I agree with that, but we must tread carefully not to lump those evil-doers into the same basket as the oppressed people they would have us believe are on their side. Then we precipitate a war of cultures, which NOBODY wins. Even if we win militarily, we lose socially. We cannot allow Bin Laden to unify Islam against The West. We start droppin bombs with impunity, and he wins, cuz the Muslim states will all turn against us.
As it is, the middle-eastern countries hate us and even students attending an AMERICAN UNIVERSITY in Egypt say that the attacks on the world trade centers "America brought the attacks upon themselves, and they immediately turn and blame SOMEBODY from ISLAM as a SCAPEGOAT for their military aggression"
The people over there are uninformed. I think a very reasonable thing to do right now would to get some sort of PR spin going over there, and let the middle-eastern world see what we are REALLY like, not some aggressive, violent, militant, corrupting, Satanic BEAST. (This idea was actually Eric's, and I agree with it). Anyway, that being said, we need to bomb THE TERRORISTS and the GOVERNMENTS who SUPPORT them. Thank you.
I was told that Afghanistan, last week, has issued a new law... anyone in contact with a Westerner or listening to any Western broadcasts (radio, TV, etc) will be SHOT.
It is illegal in Afghanistan to own a TV, radio, or short-wave radio.
Sol
You mean the Taliban issued that new law, they're not recognized as the official governemnt of Afghanistan. It is also illegal (according to the Taliban) for women to leave their place of residence- even in the case of medical emergency. One woman was shot for trying to bring her sick child to a doctor. Oh, and if a woman is caught talking to a man who isn't a relative or her husband, that is punishable by stoning. If the woman isn't married (but gets caught doiung the same thing) she gets 100 lashes in public.
Try these links for some general info on what islam really teaches and how far the terrorists are from it:
http://isgkc.org/translat.htm
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87474
Here's Saudi Arabia's official statement on their breaking of ties to the Taleban.
Saudi statement in full
Faye, those links on Islam were really, really good- a nice recommendation, thanks =)
Anyone else check them out?
hey people, check this article out:
hijackers in hell
Hello my peoples, please check out the following link to support a temporary memorial for the WTC- I've already sent my letter of support for this.
Towers of Light
You know, it'd be a really nice idea to leave a light-monument up permanantly.
What is the scoop on the effort at the Twin Towers Site? Is it safe yet?
Sol
Still digging out.
They've got another 6 months to go before all the rubble is removed. There's also a sea-wall they have to reinforce or else we'll get seawater flooding the NYC subway system. Since all that rubble is the only thing holding that sea-wall up it complicates things- would you beleive ground Zero is still smouldering? Lower Manhattan still smells like human BBQ. Gross, I know- but true.
Some belive that when great tragedy occurs the very soil on which it occurs preserves the great sadness and anguish of the event for all time. The ground becomes desecrated.
I felt this when I visited Gettysburg at age 15 on a scout trip. Hearing the graphic accounts as told by our park guide and standing on the very fields where the battle took place took me back in time. It was a very strange uncomfortable feeling as the images of the horrible battles filed my young imagination. Instantly I was transported back with the men who bravely fought and sufferd men who were mostly not much older then I was at the time and I for a very brief moment I understood.
How will future generations feel as they stand on the WTC site? The haunting images of September 11, 2001 will no doubt remain in our minds for many years to come. It will remain long after the site has been cleared. The imprint of this tragedy has been cast forever.
Virtual Nukes
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html
Gettysburg IS haunted, Bryan. I saw a ghostly uniun brigade marching through the woods where a union brigade was slaughtered during the actual battle. I thought it was a re-enactment going on, but they just melted away into the morning mist. There are documented reports from all around Gettysburg of civil war ghosts/hauntings/imprints/etc.
But yes, The WTC site has more lost souls than the beaches at Normandy AND Pearl Harbor PUT TOGETHER. There is gonna be some significant spiritual turbulence there, I think...
Today is Election Day.
Remember to vote!
Yah, I voted today. They have some strange-looking people working at the polls. This one women looked like her eye sockets were bleeding.
Taliban out of Kabul - what does it mean, Fred???
Sol
Pentagon officials said they received reports from Mazar-e Sharif of people reveling after the Taliban were driven out of the city, including playing music -- banned by the Taliban -- and women taking off the restrictive veils and clothing they were forced to wear, some were naked.
And many of the men rushed to the barber shops to get their beards shaved off too.
I just hope the UN gets there quick to hold some kind of order.
Some sort of provisional government needs to be set up, and many of the tribal leaders of Afghanistan have gathered OPENLY in Kabul to discuss measures to be taken. Word also has it that many taliban recruits have defected (by the bucketload) to the Northern Alliance (but I wouldn't believe that very UNOFFICIAL report just yet). The majority of the taliban are said to have fled back into Pakistan.
This is what Afghanistan needed to throw off the yoke of tyranny and oppression they have carried since the Soviet occupation. Many people may claim the US is setting up a "pet government" that will be more accepting of our ideas, etc etc etc...
first of all, the US has nothing to do with setting up foreign governments. Second of all, this only means phase 1 of operation "enduring freedom" is nearing completion. The international coalition has targets in Sudan, Iraq, Iran, even Pakistan. This has not been about ousting Bin Laden from Afghanistan, this has been about the deliberate extermination of fundamentalist terrorist organizations as a whole.
This thing is just starting. I believe, as far as Afghanistan is concerned, we did the right thing. You did not see massive amounts of US troops fighting a costly ground war, no. You saw an elite corps of special forces commandos training the local opposition to fight for themselves against the taliban. This instilled a sense of pride and a sense of nationalism in the locals, and they joined together to take back THEIR OWN COUNTRY. We helped out a bit with our air campaign, obviously.
Did you know that certain media groups were actually airing reports entitled "is America deliberately killing women and children in Afghanistan?" I find this fact apalling. Rather than showing our support for our armed forces, they were bordering dangerously close to criticising our operations etc.
Some of the people here where I work have actually said "Do you know how much money we're WASTING flying aid over there to Afghanistan? Why should they set up a government to keep the peace? Let them kill each other, and we can give the land to the palestinians to shut them up." I tried to explain to him that not all Afghanis were bad. He very animatedly waved his arms around and yelled "Who CARES? KILL THEM ALL!!! DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY OF OURS THEY KILLED?!?!?" At that point I knew enough to just walk away.
I hope this is not a widespread mentality, but I know in my heart that it probably is. I told him he was very narrow-minded, and he just nodded as if he were proud of that fact. Oh well, I have written enough. I must now return to work and talk to stupid people. Ciao!
Can the ends justify the means? Indeed, I have to say that it is very gratifying to see that Afghanistan's capitol is freed, that maybe there is some hope of generating some decent human rights in the aftermath of a disaster. God Bless us all
Sol
what means? we did nothing wrong in the way this was executed. We did not take vengeance. We did not make it a personal issue. We did not purposely target innocents to achieve the desired result. We did not stoop to their level. We conducted ourselves with the greatest of honor during this entire affair, so how can you say something like "The ends justifies the means"? that is usually reserved for something like, "we had to kill that baby because it was destined to grow up and bear the antichrist" THAT would be the ends justifying the means. Do you think we conducted ourselves in some manner other than the cause of justice and peace? Do tell us, please.
I think you may already know what I would say on the subject. And yes, there are certainly shades of "wrongness."
Sol
Don't get me wrong. It is just that whenever a war must occur, whenever we are given no choice but to force our way in order to resolve a problem, there has been a terrible, terrible failure by human beings. Nothing can make me feel good about that, no matter the outcome. I am pleased that some semblence of freedom might be restored to an oppressed people, but I am most deeply grieved at the fact that killing of any kind was required to resolve this situation, by us or the Northern Alliance. True, we can say that enacting a combat solution in time saves nine, but does it? WWII was supposed to be the war to end all wars - it most certainly was not. The success of war at "solving" problems only helps to guarantee that future wars may occur. What other problems will require solving within our lifetimes?
I want to believe that this war was a good thing, something that we can point to and say, "look at all the good we did." But it is very hard. I have tried to convince myself, but the fact remains that we have lost something, as every soldier loses a part of himself when he must go to the battlefield to kill, and maybe to kill again.
It is a terrible loss that has been going on for so long, so many generations. It is as sad and tragic to me as the smoker who wants to quit and yet can't help going for another smoke and another until he's destroyed himself. That's exactly how I see war. It churns my stomach just the same way.
Can you blame me for feeling this way?
I cannot blame you, because war IS hell.
What has transpired in Afghanistan in the past few months is no different than what has been transpiring there in the past 25 years. The only difference is that we, the American public, has been made aware of it. Russia's occupationdestroyed Afghanistan, and we funded rebels to fight "our enemy". Russia was defeated, and the warlords tried to cut up the pieces for themselves, with the Taliban finally emerging out of Pakistan to force their rule on the broken people. For a long time, we ignored the travesty and crimes against humanity the Taliban incurred.
Until they attacked us.
Then we woke from our slumber, and I believe we unified for a common goal. Innocence has been lost. There is no regaining it. At least we may act with dignity and poise while attempting to correct the wrongs of the world.
The events of the past few months are a direct result of us Americans trying to believe the world is really a happy, safe, peaceful place. IT IS NOT. There are people around the world who believe things so alien to our way of life that we cannot try to comprehend them. There are people who would DIE to ensure their views live on. In a world like this, there can be no peace without some conflict, for people are very different. It is one thing to hope for a better world, but it is entirely another to MAKE it a better world.
In order to preach peace, one must be willing to make it happen. Walking the path of "the peaceful warrior" is very difficult, but I think, in the recent events, we, as America, have done so. We, as an international community, have done so. Our intent has never been the oppression of others for our own goals, but the liberation of an oppressed people because the situation was wrong.
It would have been a much more heinous crime had we done nothing to stop it.
Therein lies the paradox, the dichotomy of the situation, and the point which I believe is actually troubling you, Sol. Did we do the right thing? Could we have done it differently? Was there a better way? I will tell you, in my humble opinion, I believe we did. And I have respect for the president, the government, the military, in all they have done to make this happen. I, for one, am glad G.W. is in office. He has displayed more character and honor and skill and courage than Bubba ever had.
Armed conflict, although costly in terms of human life, is sometimes unavoidable. We did not initiate this fight. But we WILL finish it. This is only the beginning. This is an ongoing struggle between peace-loving, good people and hate-filled zealots who wish only destruction of their perceived "enemy".
And you would say they perceive us as an enemy because all they see of us is military might and the deaths of their neighbors. I disagree. They perceive us as an enemy because it is all they have been taught. It is all they know. This is not a war of cultures. If we truly are the enlightened party in this situation, the truth of our actions should be seen by all, right? It is difficult to defeat an enemy who has been brainwashed since birth that the western world is Satan and the only way to get to paradise is to kill all Satan's minions.
And they would do just that, if we did nothing and just sat back and let them continue terrorist attacks around the world. Look at the structure of the word, even: TERROR-IST. not a very good word, is it?
I know I cannot force people to see things my way, but I hope I have at least shed some light on my own opinions concerning this. I hope there is some truth hiding within the twisting corridors of my mind. I am, above all, a proponent of peace, but I will fight for peace if it is threatened, and I hope each and every one of you would do the same.
I would just like to point out the post I made on September 20th, in this same topic. America did exactly what I said it would, and we have been successful in this. Not trying to say "I told ya so" but merely taking pride in the fact that I actually KNOW something about something. Thank you, that is all...
As for my previous post (the long one right above this one) I can summarize it with one statement: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. 'nuff said.
One source inside the city said some 60 Chechen fighters, Taliban soldiers,drowned themselves in the Amu River rather than give up. A Northern Alliance commander told CNN of 25 trapped Taliban fighters who fatally shot one another when they saw opposition troops advancing toward them.
Sol
can you even imagine this???
Yeah, I can. You'd be surprised what panic can do to people.
Federal Marriage Amendment
There is a Constitutional Amendment being proposed that will ultimately ban homosexual marriages/civil unions and possibly domestic partner benefits in the future. It is being pushed through Congress quickly so as to make as little noise as possible. There's so much else in the news right now.
Short and to the point:
If you agree that gays and lesbians are NOT second-class citizens and SHOULD be allowed the same rights as all men and women, including marriage/civil unions, then please go to this site and sign the petition in order to make your opinion known:
ammendment petition
pass it on.
Nat
Nat,
Just signed. I totally agree with this! It is not fair for a couple to be forever banned from the security that different-sex couples are allowed the opportunity to earn.
Especially if a couple is together for 10+ years or more.
Sol
Yay Sol!!!! Hopefully society is progressing to the point where it would agree =) Values should evolve along with society instead of holding it back.
So it looks like Israel is following the US's lead in the Middle East. Opinions - will the US intervention this year provide the beginning of lasting peace in Afghanistan/the Middle East, or is it just one more skirmish amidst the many of the past decades? Or is it too soon to tell?
Sol
too soon to tell.
remember, however, that we declared war on terrorism. We are starting with Al-Qaida, but we will not stop there. Once Bin Laden is done, we hit Iran, possibly Iraq, Sudan, ANY country that harbors known terrorist or state-funded terrorist organizations.
Baby steps.
And to all you uneducated religious zealots out there, YES, that means we ARE taking over the ENTIRE WORLD for our own demonic purposes. Have A Nice Day, and welcome to AMERICA.
Hey people, for those interested the BBC has a complete translation of the dialog on the Bin Laden video tape.
Videotape translation
Disturbing stuff, makes me wanna lose my lunch.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
A moment of silence for a man that even a vegetarian has to love...
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020108/bs/obit_thomas.html