Computer Operating Systems
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Computer Operating Systems
This is for discussion of questions, tips, problems, known bugs, or news about computer operating systems.
Be it a Micorsoft Windows, Mac Os, a Unix flavor, or PalmOs, this is the place to talk about it.
Darren and I were having a debate about which OS
is better to run Lal in... Lynix or Dos. I say Dos, Darren says Lynix. Jeff puts in his 2 cents and says Windows. What's a LEV to do?
Linux....... definitely linux..
3 reasons
1) it's cheap (almost free)
2) it's unix
3) its way more stable then Windows and more
useful than DOS (dead operating system)
PalmOS might be fun though....... J
I have an answer. Lal is her own operating system. All the existing ones are too limited in all respects to implement all of her functions properly. Unless, of course, they're run on a Cray. But, then, nobody has one of them, do they? Just follow my advice from the hardware topic, and you, too, could own one of these marvels of parallel processing... J
Build a new OS... hmmm... invigorating thought...
Yeah, in case anyone is wondering, I want to build a sentient computer program. No time soon, but it has been a personal goal of mine ever since early college. When? 1) - when Gargamel Program is done 2) - when loans are paid (pretty much the same thing).
I made very little progress on Gargamel over the break, BTW. I cleaned up the smurf-grabbing animation a bit, but it still isn't done - it won't erase the animation which makes it look all runny. I need to build a new animation tool, also, that will automatically create the negative image I need. I think I will - otherwise, I'll have to make 8 by hand, and that would take longer.
I really dislike Windows. It always crashes for no reason. So I say go Dos! I also have a fear that Bill Gates is secretly gathering TONS of personal information about people through future upgrades of Windows and probably Hotmail, too. There are several conspiracy theories on the web to this effect.
Sol,
You can get Linux from me. I have Red Hat Linux 5.1 on CD. It is also freely downloadable from the web.
Linux info site
Red Hat Linux Web Site
Oh, and linux will run just fine on a 486. I have it installed on my Dell 486 SX 50, and it only has a 300 mb hard drive.
Of course, if you want a dos partition, and alot of free space for LAL's memory, I'd advise the following.
1. A enhanced IDE controler card ($15 bucks) to allow you to put drives larger the 540 mb on
your DELL 486 machine.
2. A bigger hard drive. I saw a Western Digital
8.2 mb hard drive selling at best buy for $129.00
(after 50.00 mail in rebate). Damm, if I had only
waited, i could have had the power too!
However, given that range, I'm sure you can find refurbished hard drives for bit less money. Still, its damm good considering I paid 240.00 two years ago for a 2.1 gb drive. Man, now I feel like I'm gonna cry.. WHY! WHY Do they overcharge taco? :)
Ha ha ha! I will check out those Linux sites. I don't know if I want it, but it is probably worth looking into. Doesn't it come with a C compiler built-in? Just wondered! I wonder if I'd be very crippled trying to run other Apps in Linux?
Sol. If you want I could almost permanately give you the copy of RedHat on my desk.
Linux is a flavor of unix. your answer is almost certainly yes. It probably does not come with more than CC (big CC). Ask Bry, he installed it.
Crippled??? No. In fact I just saw an office suite of apps made esp. for Linux.
(it's probably on the web page, if not ask me and i'll look it up for ya)
I could also prob. provide you with the ide card
(i have one also on my desk doing nothing, right next to that baby 1 gig drive)
-- Darren
I have a pre-386 clone machine with no hard drive. Two 5.25" floppy drives, keyboard, monitor, .. it all works. What can I do with it, besides play old games on it?
In addition to that i have a Mac SE.
I want to do something creative with these things, any ideas? (no fishtank ideas!)
-jen
I used to program on my old machine. You could also use it to write papers on, etc. Not very imaginative ideas I grant you!
Jen:
You could use the 386 as a storage computer - backup for your data files, etc.
you could use it to run old DOS games you liked but can't anymore because a program wants to be run ONLY in DOS
You could even, if nothing else works, give it to charity and get a tax write-off. You'd be surprised how many NFP places don't have computers because they're too expensive...
well, a 386 IS a computer... what did people DO with their computers back then, anyway?
Not a whole lot unfortunately. I think even tetris was enough to fry the motherboard on a 386 or something....
Nat you're incorrect. my sister's 286 as well as my 386 both could run tetris (and quite well thank you.) in fact we had tetris running on an 8088,
but not quite as efficiently.
Jen, I may be able to provide you with a hard drive, perhaps either a 70 or 120 meg (I'll have to see which is in the best shape when I go home again.) Both have been recently in each of the 2 and 3-86's.
As for software, that could be a bit more tricky since most of the big name stores tend to have very little for these older machines, but I may be able to help there as well. The good news about the software is that is also almost always the least expensive in the bins J
--Darren
Perhaps, but you still can't do much with a 386 these days. However I suppose it's better than nothing at all.
That does depend on what it is you wish to do.
If you want to surf the web, a 386 can do it, but it will not be a pleasant experience.
If you want to keep your car from slipping and
sliding on the road, that 386 could do it (if
it's particularly heavy and your car is part. light)
If you want to type papers, it does this. If you want to play the more archaic games like pac man and tetris (oldies but still fun and mindless) you can.
But if you want to do any computer graphics/animation don't try it. Not worth it. Or if you want to play new games that also won't happen.
--Darren
If you want to learn the basics of how the interior of a computer is set up, an old 386 is GREAT. You can see where all the common parts of a newer computer are, And they're ALL ENLARGED for easy reference!!! Besides this fact, they're all placed in relatively the same spots as in a newer machine, so as you dismantle it, you can see each piece as it should appear, only larger. With the larger size of the cards and motherboard, you would think that it's more crowded in there, under the hood... But surprisingly, it isn't. As with older model cars, there tends to actually be more room on the interior of one of these machines. So, if you're just starting out on the road of a computer techie, a 386 is a great way to learn the ropes. The End.
Also, nobody gets upset if you screw up and fry the whole thing, then toss it in the company dumpster to cover the evidence, as well as your own, negligent butt... J
It's all in what you get used to. Someone I know
got a p166 (and is now whining about how slow that
is.. ) and his wife has his 386... she says it's
fine for her. She writes letters and
designs/prints a newsletter on that thing. I
should mention that Office is *incredibly* slow on
this thing.
I'm typing this on a 66mhz machine. I'm telling
you this in the hopes maybe someone'll feel sorry
for me and *give* me a new computer :)
And thanks, Darren, I'll keep my eye out.
I just printed out a Linux manual. It sure is big, but I am really starting to lean towards it after reading through the documentation. I can hardly wait until I have time to really do something with it. It seems this will be Summer. I really am just in the research stages of my Lal project, and I wouldn't even say it is ORGANIZED research yet. I am so excited every time I fins another piece though, just so frustrated that I don't have time to really DO anything yet! Oh, soon my friends! In the meantime, I have my Linux manual to look at.
If a friendly soul would like to look at the document and comment on its usefulness, please do!
Sol's Linux Document
Here's the site also, so you (or later me) can go find it...
Linux Documentation Page
See now, Linux won't run Windows stuff, right? That's the big disadvantage about having it. Not that I am a big Windows fan, BUT most software is written for it. What to do? Is there a solution?
Dual-boot!
I've said this before tony. You can create a linux system with a dos/windows partition. When you want dos/windows programs, you reboot the machine into dos/windows.
Now if you are talking about letting LAL access windows programs well, you shouldn't be exposing her to that sort of trash anyways. :)
-Houdini
haha! good point... then, maybe I should just use MAC-OS and put her in the new computer I found!
DOS? You use DOS? That ancient, obsolete, one command at a time garbage? With (insert latest highly-promoted operating
system here) nobody uses DOS anymore.
Yes, I have some very good reasons to keep using DOS. Consider:
The word processor I've been using for years is a DOS program. It works perfectly. The Windows 3.1 version of the same
program costs twice as much. The Windows95 version costs five times as much! Why should I pay for a new program which I
will use to do exactly what the old one did?
Windows 3.1 programs run slower than equivalent DOS programs. Windows95 programs, on my machine (a 90 MHz
Pentium), remind me of when I was using a 4 MHz 8088; they run with glacial slowness if they have to manipulate a large
amount of data.
I have a number of batch files and program scripts that do exactly what I want. Should I throw them out just so I can use a
similar utility in a new operating system?
All of this misses the point. A GUI (graphic user interface) such as Windows3.1/Windows95 is designed for multitasking. But
I'm not. For most of my PC use I can only concentrate on one thing at a time. Whether I'm doing word processing, number
crunching, data manipulation, graphics, even most Internet work; when I'm using the computer I'm doing a single task. A fast,
efficient CLI (command line interface) is what I want.
I have Windows95 on my computer. I have some very nice Windows programs to play with. But when I want to do serious
work I quit Windows and switch to DOS.
Home
Overview
Easiest Windows Yet
Simpler, More Intelligent Interface
Windows® 2000 Professional streamlines the familiar Windows
interface by reducing desktop clutter and simplifying the Start menu. In
addition to removing unnecessary desktop items, Windows 2000
Professional introduces Personalized Menus, a new "smart" feature that adapts the Start menu to
the way you work by showing you the applications you typically use most often. The
"intelligence" continually monitors your usage of programs that you access from the Start menu,
making it easy for you to keep your Start menu clean.
Windows 2000 Professional also introduces new interface features that make it simpler to use:
An integrated, easier-to-use search feature that helps you find information on your
computer, your network, or on the Web.
More informative help when you need it. For example, the Help viewer displays an
integrated table of contents and index, including the search results at the same time you
are viewing a Help topic. It also includes a Favorites tab for bookmarking topics, letting
you display topics that you refer to often.
Intuitive dialog boxes and error messages that clarify your options when you need to make
a decision or correct a problem.
Built-in support for viewing and editing more than 60 language character sets, which
means you can run programs in different languages on a single version of Windows.
Since I'm on CK's Win2K research team, I get to look at fun stories like this one all day long:
High-Speed Networking Record Set by Win2K...
My old workpc yoda (which used to house this website), has been reborn.
It now has a very spiffy and stable I might add, Red Hat Linux 7.0 instalation.
Ahh.. to return to my UNIX heritage.. it is a good thing.
http://www.redhat.com/
-Houdini
I just got to look at Mac OS X on my brother-in-law's Mac G4 last night. It really impressed the hell out of me.
It uses unix as its underlying operating system and can run both mac and unix apps equally well.
The machine also had incredible speed. It probably will not leverage Apple to become a dominant player in the general pc owner market, but it will certainly stregthen its role as
a leader high performance computing for
a price that is considerably cheaper then your typical SGI or Sun Workstation.
Wow, that's pretty cool! I am thinking (casually) about setting up a Linux box since I have the SW to do it and certainly have the spare machines as well. Linux is freedom, and freedom is life! I am very impressed by this and like the idea of going "over the wall" especially if Linux will run my Windows apps.
Sol
Macs have been used for design, multimedia and DV editing for years. I prefer them over PCs, and I'd buy a G4 if I had the money. In my experience most people who snub Macs have never actually used one themselves. I've used both and I say think Macs rule, but PCs are OK too even though they come in second for me.
Someone told me once that having a MAC is like buying a Porscha and... (Sue me I can't spell Porshe)
porsha
porcha
oh never mind :P
Sol
I love Macs, PCs have always been 2nd rate to me. Of course work uses only PCs. My bro uses Macs exclusively in his biz. Much better for any art application. I just wish they had a stronger, deeper market niche.
I wish they made more games for the Mac ;) Recently one of my dreams came true- Alias/Wavefront made a Maya version for Mac OS X!!!!!
Cool Beans!
Hey Sol, are you implying that buying a Mac is frivolous?
as long as Microsoft exists, APPLE will be a second-rate company. Why? Bill Gates' cross-platform business applications are designed to run on all machines, but are geared to run more smoothly on PC's. MAC's have a place and a use, and for what it's worth, they are the primary reason why I am employed, but they like to use software designed SPECIFICALLY for them. You can't slap a PC version of MS Office into a G4 and expect it to run, and vice-versa. The MAC will read the files, and tell you what they are, but it won't run. A PC won't even do that. My point? The industry has been geared at a hardware war, with 2 forces, APPLE vs. IBM, but when IBM contracted Microsoft, it became a bigger giant, and the age of PC clones came to pass, etc. etc. etc.
I don't particularly like one platform over another, they're just different. The best comparison is: MAC's are like an automatic transmission car, and PC's are like a manual transmission car. Both perform comparably when driven next to each other, one may corner better, but the other has a better acceleration, whatever--the point is, they are in competition, which breeds an atmosphere of "build a better mousetrap". With that said, I will leave it up to the rest of you to decide.
Windows XP is set to be released this October...
Yah, I dunno, Mac seems to hide so much from the user. It makes me suspicious!
Sol
Not really, ya just gotta know how/where to look for the advanced stuff. It hides a lot so that it's idiot proof. You don't want a beginner screwing with things like tcp and drivers =) So they keep it out of sight, you have to know where to dig for it =)
Ahhh, so very clever!
Sol
Anyway, this is in response to Damien's post in the quotes section about the evil vile Microsoft, etc etc...
Have you tried Windows XP yet Damien? Oh, of course not, because it HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET. The only reason I have the full-blown commercial version of it is because Microsoft gave it to their students of MCSE win2000 server. One of which happens to work for my dad, who gladly just gave it to me.
Windows XP is the most stable first-run microsoft product I have seen to date. With true plug-and-play, including hot-swappable hardware options and enough built-in drivers to autodetect your cousin's mama's thirdhand ironing machine, it was so easy to setup... I put the CD in and about 45 minutes later, my machine was asking me what I wanted to do next. I have only found minor issues with certain games, but that's primarily due to the NT engine, which some games were not designed to run on. However, these are only minor issues and can be worked around, I only need to consider my options.
all this talk about microsoft being evil, a giant monopoly and all this other drivel makes me a little mad. A company puts forward a credible business effort and succeeds at it, and is criticized for being successful? Just because some of the other software companies maybe didn't do something right, whether it be support, marketing, development, whatever... Suddenly, Microsoft, IE, Bill Gates, is the evil spawn of satan? It was poor market strategy and a lack of foresight that drove apple into the ground a few years back, not Bill Gates and some alleged "master plan" to rule the universe. Let's try to make some sense here. You wanna start pointing fingers at monopolies, why not turn to what, Time/Warner/Turner... whatever entertainment? but you know why THEY never get nabbed by the anti-trusters? No matter how much the little mom&pop TV stations complain? Because they got the government in their pockets. Microsoft, apparently, likes to keep its money among its shareholders and ceos and stuff--where it SHOULD be, and because they do not pay off some government official, they get tagged with billions in legal costs just to defend their corporate structure.
And you gotta give em credit, they are weathering the storm.
Whose side am I on? I am on the side of fair representation. And I really don't think Microsoft has been given a fair shake in this whole situation. They make good products. these products work on a variety of platforms. The reason they are so prevalent is BECAUSE they work so well on so many platforms, NOT that it is Bill Gates' evil plan to put microsoft products on EVERY COMPUTER IN THE WORLD. If you honestly don't like Microsoft, go get a MAC, or LINUX, or God forbid, OS/2... When you wanna play PC games with me, in my universe, you speak Microsoft, or you don't speak at all... 
That is all, I have spoken.
Quite franlkly I think Microsoft is inferior to Mac in terms of quality. And I have used both platforms extensively; just because a product is popular (microsoft) that doesn't mean it's better, or the best out there by any means. There are companies that go with microsoft (reluctantly) only to avoid compatibility issues, but not because they think MS is better. That's why people think of Bill Gates and MS as evil, because in that case people really don't have a choice of OS. That's reality for you, but it doesn't mean everyone has to like it.
So I'm glad you like MS for your gaming needs, Fred. That's cool. But there's more to computers than gaming, and quite a few things MS isn't suited for.
I have worked with MACs and PCs both now for over 6 years. IMHO, BOTH platforms have their own issues. BOTH platforms I have witnessed crash an equivalent number of times. BOTH platforms, indeed, are suited to different needs/uses. But I must say that PC-based processors are NOT synonymous with Microsoft, and that they are moving toward the graphics market with considerable speed and efficiency, which has been primarily MAC-based in the past.
Also, try plugging a MAC into a network sometime, and see how many headaches it gives you. Granted, they have come a long way in recent years, but still have troubles translated 100 megabit datastreams as fast as a PC can. I cannot represent LINUX/UNIX here, since I have very little experience with it...
Windows NT / 2000 and Linux Red Hat 7 Dual Boot.
This document describes the use of the Windows NT or 2000 boot loader to start Linux Red Hat 7.
How does the NT OS Loader work
The NT OS loader likes to have the boot sector from the other operating systems available as a file. It reads this file and starts the operating system selected, i.e. either Windows NT in different Modes or any other OS.
First set up the hard drive
I prefer to start with a "clean" hard drive. Either a new unformatted hard drive(s) or delete everything from an existing hard drive. You can boot from a DOS floppy disk and use the "FDISK" command to delete everything on the hard drive and use "FDISK /MBR" to clean out the Master Boot Record. An alternative is to use the format commands in the NT/2000 install.
If you want to use NTFS for your Windows NT-partition, keep in mind, that todays production version of Linux cannot access NTFS partitions. An alpha driver that can read NTFS-Partitions is available at http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~loewis/ntfs. You may create a separate FAT-Partition for data exchange or use DOS-formatted floppies or place data on another computer. I prefer to ftp the files to another computer, re-boot and retreive the files. I sometimes email myself with the file(s) attached. For the creation of the dual boot we will use a floppy.
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Partitioning
Use the NT/2000 installation to partition the hard drive for NT/2000 and use the Master Boot Record (remember to save space for LINUX!). Later we will use linux's fdisk to partition Linux and place LILO on the first section of the linux partition. Two or more hard drives can be used for this installation as long as NT/2000 has the Master Boot Section.
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Windows NT Installation
Now it is time to install NT/2000. Pull out your cd (and floppies if you need them) and perform a normal install except only partition and format part of the available disk space, remember to leave space for the LINUX install.
Don't forget to make a emergency repair disk!
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Linux installation
Now boot the LINUX Red Hat 7 installer from diskettes or cd. Fdisk assumes the ntfs-partition to be a HPFS-partition. This is normal. Create the Swap and root (and any other) partitions using the Disk Druid or Fdisk utility inside the Linux installation program.
This next step is important. When you come to the Lilo-Section, specify your Linux-root-partition as your boot device because the Master Boot Record (MBR) of your harddisk is owned by Windows NT. Also make a boot diskette. You have to boot from diskettes until the NT-part is fixed. This means that the root-entry and the boot-entry in your /etc/lilo.conf have the same value. If you have a IDE-harddisk and your Linux-partition is the second partition, your boot-entry in /etc/lilo.conf looks like:
boot=/dev/hda2
If you have two disks and your Linux resides on the first partition of your second disk, your boot-entry in /etc/lilo.conf looks like:
boot=/dev/hdb1
Run lilo with a kernel that matches your system. Check the kernel by booting from diskette first if you are not sure.
If you cannot boot Windows NT now, you have a problem. I hope you have created a repair-disk recently!
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The Linux part of the work
You have to boot from diskettes until the NT-part is fixed.
Now you have to peel the bootsector from your Linux-root-Partition. With /dev/hda2 as your linux-partition, the dd-command is:
# dd if=/dev/hda2 of=/bootsect.lnx bs=512 count=1
There is something wrong if your bootsect.lnx has more than 512 bytes.
Now copy the file bootsect.lnx to a DOS-formated floppy if this is your way to transfer files to the NTFS-Windows-partition.
You can copy it with
# mcopy /bootsect.lnx a:
or with
# mount -t msdos /dev/fd0 /mnt
# copy /bootsect.lnx /mnt
# umount /mnt
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The Windows NT part of the work
Copy the file from the diskette to C:\bootsect.lnx
What lilo.conf is for linux c:\boot.ini is for Windows NT. Remove the, system- and the read-only-attribute before you can modify it with:
C:\attrib -s -r c:\boot.ini
Now change the file boot.ini with an editor, notepad for example, as follows:
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation ...
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation ...
C:\BOOTSECT.LNX="Linux Red Hat 7.2"
Only the last line has been added in this example. Restore the attributes after you have saved boot.ini with:
C:\attrib +s +r c:\boot.ini
After a shutdown of your Windows NT and a restart your should see the following:
OS Loader V4.00
Please select the operating system to start:
Windows NT Workstation Version 4.0
Windows NT Workstation Version 4.0 [VGA mode]
Linux Red Hat 7.2
Select Linux and see
LILO loading zImage ....
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Play it again Sam
A new copy of bootsect.lnx must be transfererd to C:\BOOTSECT.LNX evry time the bootsector of your linux-partition has been modified. This happens for example when you install a new kernel with lilo. As you can see such a system in not ideal for testing experimental kernels.
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Troubleshooting
If things do not work as expected, check bootability with a floppy disk. With /dev/hdb1 as your Linux-partition, your /etc/lilo.conf has the following entries:
root=/dev/hdb1
boot=/dev/fd0
Run lilo with a diskette inserted. Now try to boot from the diskette. If your Linux on /dev/hdb1 can't be started, the NT OS loader will also fail to start it. If you see a lot of 01 01 01 01, your root-disk is not accessible. Check whether all your disks are known by the bios.
If the floppy boots your Linux partition, you can peel of your boot-sector for the NT OS loader with:
# dd if=/dev/fd0 off=/bootsect.lnx bs=512 count=1
You can keep this diskette as your rescue-diskette just in case your Windows NT installation breaks.
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Sounds pretty sweet! Dual Boot is the nyce way to go!
Sol
Windows Vista - is it worth it? Or just another ploy of Microsoft's to get money?